Hello, and welcome to the Nonfiction Authors Podcast. I'm Carla King, your host, and today we're talking with christine Carron, a writing and productivity expert about healthy and unhealthy productivity styles, Steady, Surger. Maxer, and Slacker. Which ones have you experienced? But first I want to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by the nonfictionauthorsassociation.com, and that's where you can find this and all of our other podcasts, including full transcripts, links, and show notes. So head over and subscribe to our email list to get notified about upcoming guests and look at the list of past guests. You can also take advantage of our free resources and explore membership options. We're here to help make your writing and publishing journey an enjoyable and successful one connect you to a community of nonfiction authors like you. Now I'd like to introduce our guest, Christine Carron, who's a writer, creative productivity expert, and the founder of GoodJelly, where she helps writers charge of their writing adventure using smart processes, grounded power, and inner kindness- thank you very much. Christine is also an author of Middle Grade and Young Adult fiction. You can find her at goodjelly.com. Welcome to the podcast, Christine.
audio - Christine:Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
audio - Carla:I'm happy to have you. I know you have been helping not only writers, but scientists and software developers and dog trainers and academics and all kinds of people with productivity. So, I'm eager to explore these different productivity styles. Which one would you like to start with?
audio - Christine:Well, I like to start with writers to talk about what I call the zone of healthy productivity. And a lot of times writers are taught things like you have to write every day, and there's this pressure to that somehow have be on and producing all the time so what I wanted to create is some space for writers to really connect more to what is their own natural rhythm. And for some writers, so on one end of the spectrum Absolutely are what I call studies, who are really served by consistency, by saying, I'm going to be doing this at the same time every day, or going to be this amount of time, and then I'm going to stop, or this number of words and then I will stop. But there are other writers like me whose style is more surging, where it's more wave-like progress. And then of course in between that. There's a whole range of people could be, you know, a mix, mostly surger, but then when they're writing, they kick into a steady mode or vice versa. So that range of just feeling, this sense of not every writer's going to be productive in the same exact way and creating space for that. Another model I have is called your code and context. What is your inherent creative code, which part of is your productivity style, but your context is where your life is right now. Sometimes the writers I work with are working parents with small kids. They're going to have a different context, and depending on where you are on your writing journey, you may think, oh, just to get started, I am really going to have to be consistent because this feels a little like oh my gosh, I'm really going to write a whole book. So I better just give myself really small goals to work toward while someone who is more confident in their writing or more confident in their, ability to create and produce. From, point zero and just move into it may be able to say, okay, now I can have a little more flexibility in my schedule. So both code and context can change. Business folks who have learned have had access perhaps more than some creative writers who have not necessarily been in the business world. The process I teach is Agile inspired, so any business person who's more software development based will understand that idea of rhythm and working you know, I don't call them sprints, but in agile scrum they're called sprints. So adding rhythm to your work, and focus to your work, and that's a lot of what I teach writers to help them not be in slog mode.
audio - Carla:So also am a creative writer and a nonfiction business how-to writer, and I know it's interesting, my self-publishing books. I mean, I'm working on the sixth edition now. They come very quickly to me. But the memoirs, which are more creative and more inner, you know, work are much harder. I have a lot more difficulty finding time and a rhythm for those.
audio - Christine:It may be nothing to do with the writing and more of the subject matter and that you're moving around something different to get to that place than the writing skills. And I think that's another thing that I introduce and want writers to engage with themselves on. My background is project manager. All I do when I'm project managing is handle blocks, but writers think blocks are some I'm blocked and I'm like, you're blocked. Let's figure it out. You know? Okay. It's taking me a little longer. I'm feeling a little more hesitant. Then just an inquiry of what is that? How could you make it easier to move more quickly into the memoir and engage with that as a process instead of just saying, this is how it is.
audio - Carla:So there are healthy styles and unhealthy styles.
audio - Christine:Most people intuitively say, yeah, I'm more of a steady, or I'm more of a surger. The problem is the culture we live in everybody wants to be what I call a maxer, where you're supposed to be going at high speed all the time. So whenever I work with writers, they'll come and tell me, I had a week where I I wrote, I don't know, say some high number, or I had a day where I wrote 6,000 words a day, and now, That's what I'm supposed to be doing every day, and I'm thinking, why not just celebrate you have a 6,000 word day and then go back to something that's easy for you to achieve. If you're a steady, it may be a thousand words a day or 250 words a day, or you may want to work up to a higher work count, but you just can't, in my opinion, have one 6,000 word day, and then immediately expect yourself to produce that again, and again and again without thinking through your process and what was the way that you made that happen. And so, and then what happens with surgers is they have these kind of highs and lows, which if they're watching a steady, they can feel a little like, oh, you know what's wrong with me? I'm not producing every day. But then they have these nice days, but then they too think, well, on my high days I need to be going higher and more and further. So this mentality that we have to go hardcore all the time really is not what I teach, is sustainable, creative productivity and maxing is not sustainable. What maxing is going to lead to is burnout, and then you're having no progress whatsoever. None. Cuz you're just disconnected from your creativity. You're exhausted and you're thinking, am I real? I is this ever going to happen for me me? If I were a quote real writer, this would be easier. Some productivity methods that a lot of writers know, like the Palmora method invite you and their studies that show that having that break actually opens up more creativity and more productivity. just meeting yourself where you are. And if you would want to explore, okay, how could I make it easier? For me to be confident about taking breaks. Is it because you're getting caught up in the writing? Okay, that's one thing. But if you're staying there because you're afraid or nervous that, and below the surface that creativity won't come back or the flow won't come back, then that's something to explore, in my opinion, from a process perspective that makes perfect sense.
audio - Carla:You know, I took my apple watch off my wrist because Yes it, it did interrupt me when I was in kind of a deep flow state and I knew I needed to get up. My body tells me that right? I, when I need to get up and go for a walk or go play in the garden So it sounds like we know this is all psychological. If we could just overcome our psyche and do it, we can do it. But we do, I know, adhere to these fictional writerly styles and then we think, oh, I'm just a slacker.
audio - Christine:And that is the voice of the maxer are inside you. I have never met a writer who is truly a slacker, that's just their maxer part inside telling them if they're in their natural rhythm, they're not maxing out that they're a slacker. And so that is just a perception. There's, you know, even with things like the inner critic, I say maxer is really in partnership with the inner critic. You know, you should be doing this. Why aren't you doing it this way? That's just a part of you. It's just one voice inside you and you can make room for other voices and just not let them run the show and say, okay, yeah, I hear you think I should be maxing. You know what my body is saying? I kind of need a bathroom break, or I kind of need a walk. And so I have other parts of me, other skills, other expertise that we're going to be okay if I take that break. And I'm going to be able to get back into the flow of writing, keep moving forward. And it just, again, this idea of creating spaciousness for yourself as a writer and really it being the writing adventure that you actually want to be on. That is yours. That you're creating in a way that, is sustainable and that replenishes you. So when you get to the end of that amazing accomplishment of finishing your book, you're in deep delight from the experience and the end product kind of passionate about this stuff.
audio - Carla:Ideal. No, that's ideal. So how do we get there? What can we do to, to overcome our patterns?
audio - Christine:Well, I would watch the words like overcome and invite yourself to just say, Hey, how can I play with this? How can I make this fun that, hey, I have these parts all of us have maxers inside of us. We use that maxing power for good. We just can't let it run the show. So we don't have to say, I can never max again. You know, there may be times, yes, once or or twice you have to pull something out and really hit a deadline, but if you're making yourself do that all the time, that's going to hit burnout. I think there's another thing writers can do is really say, how can I design my process, design the way I approach my writing work in a way that more aligns with my creative style. So one thing I tell writers is if you are a steady, absolutely keep that daily word count. But for a a surger, I suggest that they create a weekly word count. A week is still a short enough timeframe that you can really stay on top and track your progress. But it gives a surger, some flexibility. So I have a certain word count when I'm working on a novel of what I'm going to hit every week. And then within that, if I get all my work count done in two days, I have put no pressure on myself to write because I actually know replenishing will allow me to repeat that again the next week. And so I'm consistent from a week to week basis versus a daily basis. That's one idea. And then also if you're a steady, and there's definitely, one of the things I talk about with writers is there's more work on the writing adventure than just writing. you really want to ace the writing adventure, and so you have to manage the scope of all of that. And so for a steady,may want to design where you're really focused on bigger chunks of time. One of the writers in my programs who is definitely a surger, she likes to have a lot of variety. It drains her creativity if she's saying, I have to do the same thing over and over and over. So think about variety as well.
audio - Carla:And then we have to make room for all kinds of, what you call invisible work. And writerly work that's not writing. Yes. Can you that?
audio - Christine:I just was talking to a group of writers last night and I said, okay, I want you to tell me your big buckets of writerly work. What do you have to do? And to a one, and this is very normal. Every one of them mentioned their writing projects and nothing else. And I said, are some of you querying? Do some of you have critique groups? Are some of you doing marketing work? Are some of you building your writerly network? Hey, are some of you working on craft? That's all of your writing work too. And if you only think of in the amount of time I have for writerly work, All I'm going to think about and try to plan to the best of my ability is the writing. All that invisible work is going to be dragging on your progress, and it's going to pop up at the worst time Then the inner critic comes in. Then you feel like, oh, you're never going to be real writer, because real writers wouldn't have this problem. So the invitation of GoodJelly is to step back and say, Manage the full scope of your writing work because what you can see, you can manage. Think of the, it's not a happy story, but think of the Titanic, all that ice beneath the surface that they couldn't see. That's the danger. You can usually, if you learn good process skills, better manage what most people think is the writing adventure. But if you want to ace it, you've got to manage all that other work too.
audio - Carla:Yeah, things like, um, you know, I have groups, we use Google Docs to share work and a lot of people don't really have a handle on Google drive and, or we decide we want to learn Scrivener or now the big thing is ChatGPT and all these AI tools, which can, be a boost, you know, a little feedback, uh, loop uh, Kind of artificial companion for your writing. So learning those, takes time out of the creative part for sure, but creates more efficiency for later. Would you agree with that?
audio - Christine:Yes, absolutely. I, there is a project management principle that says slow down to speed up. And that is exactly what you described. And learning technology can be a huge drain for writers and a huge drag on their productivity because if someone does want to use Scrivener or does Google Docs, if you would say, I'm going to just take an hour or two, there are free videos to learn anything on the internet. Learn how to use them, and suddenly you feel more in charge of that process. You're going to approach that tool with more confidence and your progress is going to speed up versus struggling every time you open up Scrivener and then in the end exiting out because it was too hard to use or it didn't work for you, et cetera. You're going to lose some of those potential productivity gains for that tool really serving you. Everyone always asks me about ai. Obviously it comes up a lot. All writers can make their own decisions on ai. From my perspective, as a productivity consultant, if you're generating writing faster, you just have more writing to manage. So I'm like, you still have to learn good work management processes that will serve you. I mean, why I founded GoodJelly was I was sitting at writing conferences listening to writers struggle, and one day I kind of had this, like, I wanted to turn to some of them and like give, like say, oh my gosh, the writing adventure doesn't have to be so hard. But they weren't struggling with craft or how to create this world or how to land voice. It was the querying or the marketing or organizing their work. And so all I do is help people take charge of their work, their process, and their mindset. And when you have that in order, In the sense of your work is the what, the full scope of it your process is, how you're managing that work. So for you using your example, if you say, okay, I'm going to take some time to learn ChatGPT, I'm also going to take time to think through how could I use this really to help me maybe read a few articles about how different creatives are using If you want to use AI or thinking, Hey, I tried it. I'm not comfortable with it. I'm not going to use that in my process, but taking that time and then your mindset is obviously working with your inner critic and creating space, and again, meeting yourself where you are because that is another way of slowing down to speed up where am I and let me me direct myself from where I am versus where I think I should be.
audio - Carla:Do you recommend creating lists or something that you can check off so you feel, just feel better about things? How do you, pep yourself up by really feeling like you've made some progress, even if you haven't hit your word count?
audio - Christine:So there's, uh, oh, so many exciting things in that statement that you just offered me. So Another question I often ask writers is, what's your set of writing productivity tools You have or strategies and they can usually name four or five.
audio - Carla:So what are those?
audio - Christine:Pomodoro method sometimes comes up, get your butt in the chair and write-this kind of harsh directive. They'll sometimes bring up Scrivener or they'll bring up brainstorming or they'll bring up mind mapping tools like that they'll bring up. And so what I teach is more flow. So for folks who know Agile using a board, some writers may be familiar with Trello, but I really go into the psychology of it and. Whatever you can do, whether it's a to-do list or you're using a board. In the statement that you said earlier, you said, how can I feel like I made progress even if I didn't hit my word count? And I would say, if you got two words down, that's progress. So you want to become more generous with yourself about claiming and celebrating progress. There's a lot of research that shows that when you really claim those wins, it builds motivation momentum and confidence. And so for me, what I call those and GoodJelly speak are done boosts you want to be getting done boosts all over the place and like stop pausing and saying, I did that. I got that done. And. You know, especially if you're struggling, like if you're in a little bit of a lull or a block, that's when, I mean, get up and do a dance break. If you get those two words written, you're really struggling, no, I, you, you, we, we promote dance breaks a GoodJelly because again, that's going to claim that you are doing it. Those two words are two more words written than maybe someone who's has completely disengaged and that slow progress is still progress and you really want to own
audio - Carla:Well that, you know, I do use, AI, ChatGPT, for creating titles and subheadings and things like that, so that, that's easier for me cuz I really suck at yeah. titles. But, um, so that kind of took it off my mind and my worry, and it made it fast. Things like blogging faster for me, but you're right about the tools. I was just thinking at the nonfiction authors association, we use Asana which is much more sophisticated than Trello, but it has boards and things and it's so satisfying. You have all these tasks and the first hurdle is to get all the tasks down, whether it's word count or how many hours or what tools we have to learn, or writing groups or beta readers or agent seeking and then write them down and then check them off in Asana every day. And in Asana when you check like three things in a row, this little flying unicorn flies across the screen, and I have to say, it sounds silly, but I want to see it, want to feel that motivation and that get that reward of, it's actually a flying narwhal, I you get the, get the Nawal every once in a while...
audio - Christine:and tools like that do kind of gamify it in that way. There's a particular reason I suggest writers use analog boards versus Trello because you're embodying the pro, you're bringing the progress into your body when you move that ticket. One of the writers was like, I kind want to put like a little star sticker on my task when I finished them. And I said, you go for it. And she goes, I mean, can adults do that? And I'm like, you're the adult. You actually now get to set the adult rules. The writing adventure is hard. I'm about adding more delight. And delight, it's not just woohoo, happy, happy. It's extreme satisfaction, and that little narwhal flying across the screen for you, you're getting a sense of satisfaction and that is saying, helps you say, yes, I can do this, and yes, I can do more.
audio - Carla:Right. And get a little actual, physically an endorphin boost. We do need more of that.
audio - Christine:Yeah. And you can create that for yourself. What I also want to say, just to keep, really opening up this idea of all your writing work, that planning that you're describing, that you all do to set up your asanas and boards. right. Early work and when you, that's slowing down. You come out of the do do, do mode, you slow down, then that speeds your progress. And then there's another inflection point thanks to asana when the little narwhal flies across the screen and then you plan again and you're saying, okay, what worked well? What do we need to adjust now that we've made progress and learned? We thought the strategy was going to go this way, or the tactic, or we thought this tool was going to work. It didn't. We have to pivot. So the more inflection points you can add to your progress again, versus this like kind of slog, I just have to be writing, writing, writing, writing, writing your progress becomes more elegant and it becomes really more on point because you're taking in that feedback. I just thought of one more tactic around the Pomodoro method. All these tools kind of like, I don't know, was it Spider-Man, Superman, whoever--with great power comes great responsibility kind of thing? And so a lot of people's inner maxer will take a tool like Pomodoro, which if you read the original documentation on it, it's really about adding more fun, adding more lightness, really using this playfulness of psychology and those done boosts. But what folks will do is they'll just keep sitting there and hitting 25 minutes-- write, write, write, write, write, write 25 minutes write, write, write! And they'll completely skip the break, and it's the activity plus the rest that is the power of the Pomodoro method.
audio - Carla:So maybe on that board you should have gardening, break, or check that off too. So it sounds like there are two healthy ways, to embrace and or identifications. I think I'm a surger right? Because I'll take three or four days and I'll finish my self-publishing guide. Then there are some people who get up at 5:00 AM and before work they get an hour and a half in. Which are more steady people and being a maxer, does mess with your endorphins, right? It's a, serotonin drain. The overachiever, you know, competing with yourself, how do you think about that?
audio - Christine:It can come in and disconnect you from your natural style. So a steady letting their maxer take over a little bit will just keep thinking they have to up their word count. A surger will just think they're supposed to be having more surges, more surges. Like instead of doing it every week, once weekend, a month, that you go finish something. You should be doing that every two days. There's a little clip of Stephen King talking about his writing and Stephen King is obviously highly prolific, and the other author says, how do you write so many books and so fast? And Stephen King makes it, well, when I'm writing, you know, when I'm working on on a project, I try to write this many words a day, and then inevitably in the comments below that post, all these writers are their mind, calculating. I could write 1000 poems a year if I wrote that much. And I just want to raise my hand and said, he does not say he writes that much every day. He says, when he's working on a project, he writes every day. And he also says he tries to write every day, which kind of implies Stephen King may have an off day, I'm not sure, but it's that leaps the maxer is hearing Stephen King say that he produces day in, day out no matter what. And then they start saying to whether the person's a steady or a surger. Why aren't you doing that? And you just have to say, that's okay. You'll keep thinking that We'll, we're to with what we know will not burn us out, so we can actually, I just keep coming back to just really being fulfilled by the amazing journey each writer is actually doing. How many people want to be writers and don't step off on this journey. And so to really honor and enjoy this process.
audio - Carla:Thank you for that. You know what, we are out of time, but I know that you have some free resources on your website and maybe social media. Can we just finish by, you letting us know where we can find it.
audio - Christine:Yeah, just come on over to GoodJelly.com. You can also find us on Instagram at League of GoodJelly. I'm cooking up new free resources now. If you get on the list, I blog every Monday. And when you join the list, you get the weekly dollop of GoodJelly every Monday morning.
audio - Carla:That's so great. Uh, do you like to make jelly? How did that come up?
audio - Christine:I once had this really cool dream about jellyfish and then started reading about them and how jellyfish actually move. They don't push through the water. They clear the water front of them and then they're moved forward. They just flow and that's a lot about what GoodJelly is instead of pushing, pushing, pushing it's creating this space.
audio - Carla:Well thanks. Christine. I really thank you for being on. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. You can read the full transcript of this conversation and every episode at nonfictionauthorsassociation.com. And please also subscribe the Nonfiction Authors Podcast on your favorite app. Until next week, remember, keep writing! The world needs your experience and expertise. Thanks.